Cave / Mine Leaders

**Ian** · Subject: Cave / Mine Leaders Mon 02 Mar 2009, 11:29 am

An interesting question of "leadership" within a party of cavers arose over the weekend which gave rise to "who is responsible/liable in a group with no designated leader?".

The ramifications of this could be significant and I posted a question to the UKCaving forum which has, and still is, receiving responses ....

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,7917.0.html

Any thoughts ?

Shocked

Ian

_________________
Release the Kraken .....

**martymarty** · Subject: Re: Cave / Mine Leaders Mon 02 Mar 2009, 6:35 pm

Ian wrote:

An interesting question of "leadership" within a party of cavers arose over the weekend which gave rise to "who is responsible/liable in a group with no designated leader?".

The ramifications of this could be significant and I posted a question to the UKCaving forum which has, and still is, receiving responses ....

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,7917.0.html

Any thoughts ?

Shocked

Ian

I havnt read the ukcaving forum yet but will post my rant anyway. As an explorer who goes out with mates most weekends down some grotty mine we as a group of friends dont see eachother as responsible for eachother but we do take care that none of us are hurt or injured in anyway shape or form "are you with me" right then, so we are all equal,

Now then. On m-e there is a calender of events page which enables other forum users to organize a trip to a mine in some other part of the country. it says on the events page (event owner) this is the person who is organizing a trip down wherever mine on such a date and people can add there name to it if they are interested in going it also has a description area where the event owner can post details of the event. now heres the tricky bit in this box I personally recommended that if you are posting a trip where you are inviting to show someone around a mine then that trip and everyone in it is your responsibility unless otherwise stated. Although you could word the description to say that, I am going to such a mine on such a date and if you want to join me then let me know BUT you are responsible for your own safety i am not leading people around etc etc make that person or persons aware then they can make the decision to tag along or not.

For a club like yourselves then i would imagine that you most certainly have a responsibility to look after your party. Because you are a club which charges fees of entry to join, weekly subs or whatever it is i imagine the powers that be would see it most differently from some mates going down a mine to a club going down a mine. So my belief is if someone who is in a club or forum and has organized a trip is the person responsible for others in that group, or has stated before hand that they are not in charge and that its just a tag along but you are responsible for youself at all times tho i dont think you would get away with that one being a club

Regards Martin

**Mike Leahy** · Subject: Re: Cave / Mine Leaders Mon 02 Mar 2009, 8:47 pm

hi mart .

you should have read the post on uk.c first !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! alien

you can rant you know lol!

**martymarty** · Subject: Re: Cave / Mine Leaders Mon 02 Mar 2009, 9:34 pm

Leahy Mike wrote:

hi mart .

you should have read the post on uk.c first !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! alien

you can rant you know lol!

do i really go on? i do like a good arguement.. i mean disscussion. tossers ukcaving anyway they refer to my mate Chris's website as dickplaces or something along those lines. Maybe i should join there forum and rant like a right tw4t there cheers

**Mike Leahy** · Subject: Re: Cave / Mine Leaders Mon 02 Mar 2009, 9:51 pm

did'nt realise such a BIG bloke could be so sensative . we can't help it if we are cavers , it's just the way we are made Suspect

**Ian** · Subject: Re: Cave / Mine Leaders Tue 03 Mar 2009, 10:26 am

Martin has identified an interesting distinction with his analogy between "a group of friends" and a trip organised by a club and attended upon by it's members. This aspect has not been addressed by the UKcaving forum (perhaps they are all paid up members of clubs?).

Also interestingly, the UKcaving postees are (currently) in debate as to whether or not a qualified leader (without experience) would have a greater duty of care than an unqualified (but very experienced) party member.

The debate continues on the thread here ....

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,7917.0.html

As for subs Martin, we ask for a nominal annual subscription of £20 (no pay-per-visit fees) which is extremely reasonable and, as you have your own business, I can show you how to get tax relief if you decide to join clown

Ian

_________________
Release the Kraken .....

**martymarty** · Subject: Re: Cave / Mine Leaders Tue 03 Mar 2009, 6:01 pm

Ian wrote:

As for subs Martin, we ask for a nominal annual subscription of £20 (no pay-per-visit fees) which is extremely reasonable and, as you have your own business, I can show you how to get tax relief if you decide to join clown

Ian

Thanks Ian I would rather pay the tax Very Happy

**Ian** · Subject: Re: Cave / Mine Leaders Tue 03 Mar 2009, 6:03 pm

martymarty wrote:

Thanks Ian I would rather pay the tax Very Happy

Charming

_________________
Release the Kraken .....

**Mike Leahy** · Subject: Re: Cave / Mine Leaders Tue 03 Mar 2009, 10:49 pm

tax relief . you never told me about that one you git .and as for martin well i thought you were a bit more of a rebel than that , im sure we will get you signed up one day . we are very patient you know

**marc** · Subject: Re: Cave / Mine Leaders Wed 04 Mar 2009, 12:10 am

Would you not best be asking the BCA/CCC this question. They exist to offer help with matters such as this, and this issue has no doubt already been raised before.

**Ian** · Subject: Re: Cave / Mine Leaders Wed 04 Mar 2009, 9:59 am

marc wrote:

Would you not best be asking the BCA/CCC this question. They exist to offer help with matters such as this, and this issue has no doubt already been raised before.

No.

_________________
Release the Kraken .....