Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre

**Les W** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Mon 08 Dec 2008, 8:50 pm

Ian wrote:

Hi Les,

Thanks for your reply - it is very useful.

I realise the issue of insurance is very confusing and must confess that I am still confused. May I perhaps go out on a bit of a limb and ask you some questions (I guess others in UCET may know the answers already but I also know this is your forte) .... Very Happy

1) I am not sure what you mean when you say the landowner is already indemnified. In this case, the landowner has had no contact with the BCA and his land agents have advised him to seal the entrances to remove liability issues if someone wanders in and is injured. Are you saying that the landowner is, in any event, indemnified by the BCA ?

Hi Ian, I'll try and answer in line so it refers to the relevent bit.

My understanding is that the BCA policy explicitly indemnifies any land owner against any liability that they may incur by allowing cavers on their land. This is a blanket policy that requires no contact with the land owner. More clarification can be obtained from BCA's Legal & Insurance officer or the Insurance manager. Contact details are on the BCA web site.

Quote:

2) Both you and Cookie refer to the "regional council". Do you mean the County Council (in this case Flintshire County Council) or is there a sub-division of the BCA known as a regional council? (sorry to be a noob).

The regional council is the regional caving council, in your case I would reckon it is Cambrian Caving Council. They effectively act as the regional arm of BCA on all matters "Conservation & Access".

Quote:

3) If you do mean the local County Council, is there a specific department we should contact and will they make us jump through any hoops which we would not otherwise have to jump through (ie. HSE issues, maintenance of a visitors log etc.) ?

Not the county council, see above.

Quote:

4) If the club doesn't opt to approach the council (the landowner would rather just seal the entrances than have to suffer any "hassle"), I assume from your explanation that the club would require insurance. Even though every member of the club is insured (the green card) I assume that this is inadequate and additional insurance specific to the mine will be required. That being so, is there a fixed premium or is it dependant on the size of the mine etc. (bearing in mind there are 3 mines) ?

The way the BCA policy works is that there is one large policy for everything and every one. BCA has to recover the cost of this vast premium from it's members and how it collects it is based on the perceived risk you pose to the policy.
Hence the insurance contribution expected from a non caver is less than that for a caver but then the risk is much less as well so it's fair.

Access control/administration is a far more risky (insurance risk that is) operation than caving and consequently the "body" that controls/administers the access is expected to contribute more. I am not sure of the current amount but I am sure it can be found on BCA's web site.

Regional caving councils (CNCC, CSCC, Cambrian, etc) are generally access controlling bodies already and are indemnified by BCA as part of their function. Other groups, such as Friends of Cwmorthin for example will pay an "access body fee" as their contribution to the insurance pot. The policy allows for any person (whether a BCA member or not and whether insured elsewhere or not) to be indemnified by the BCA policy provided they are acting as agents of the access body. This means that if access is nominally already vested in an existing body that is indemnified by BCA then they can have "agents" doing the work and they will all be indemnified (concerning their actions whilst carrying out any "works" be that actual work such as making or repairing gates or admin stuff such as administering keys or permits, etc).

The important thing is that insisting that a person is insured to visit a site does not convey any insurance cover to anybody else other than that person. This is the bit that is clearly misunderstood by all the groups that insist you must have BCA insurance to visit a site.

Quote:

I hope you don't mind me asking but as you say, it is confusing Rolling Eyes

Regards,

Ian

Of course I dont mind. I wouldn't have entered the debate if I couldn't bring anything useful.

Feel free to ask.

Les

**Ian** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Tue 09 Dec 2008, 10:46 am

Hi Les,

Thank you for your swift and detailed response Very Happy

I think I understand it now and I think a good way forward is for us to contact the Cambrian Caving Council (whom are already insured) and this should enable us (all cavers) to continue to use the mine(s) without anyone (especially the landowner who is currently being advised to seal them) having to worry about being sued.

As this forum is very new, I know that a lot of the club members have not "found it" yet and I am now in the process of passing on your very helpful advice ..... cheers

..... I am really glad that someone (ie. you!) does understand the matter of insurance as it is a very convoluted matter Shocked

Regards,

Ian

_________________
Release the Kraken .....

**Les W** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Tue 09 Dec 2008, 7:53 pm

Hi Ian,

Two final things

1. This is my understanding of how it all works, I'm pretty confident that I have it correct BUT, for a definitive answer you really should check with the BCA Insurance manager or the BCA Legal & Insurance officer.

2. Land Owner liability is only indemnified with respect to Cavers accessing the site. There is other legislation such as the Occupiers' Liability Act 1957, Occupiers' Liability Act 1984, Mines and Quarries Act 1954, Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, etc. These acts of parliament make various demands on land owners that I cannot advise on as it is not my sphere of expertise, However it is probable that to discharge their legal liabilities with respect to the various laws they need only fit a suitable fence around the shafts with the relevant signage. I don't believe they need seal the mine or carry out any drastic works concerning the site. Again BCA's Legal and Insurance officer can advise you.

Les

**Ian** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Tue 09 Dec 2008, 9:37 pm

Les, you have been incredibly helpful and you are a star sunny

_________________
Release the Kraken .....

**Les W** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Tue 09 Dec 2008, 9:43 pm

Just glad to be able to help

Les

**martymarty** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Tue 09 Dec 2008, 9:53 pm

Im glad it seems to be working out that we all may still be able to use this mine it should you be able to solve liability problems it would be a real shame for all of us to loose access to it. (Apologies for the "two bit club" slur in my earlier post Ian im just hoping UCET dont go the same way as Grosvenor)

Regards Martin

**Ian** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Tue 09 Dec 2008, 9:56 pm

Martin,

No worries .... I think we all get a bit flustered from time to time when our caves & mines are threatened with closure Crying or Very sad

Thanks for your post Smile

Regards,

Ian

_________________
Release the Kraken .....

**AdminJ** · Admin Number of posts: 68 Registration date: 2008-11-24

I'd like to say a big thanks to everyone on this topic, especially those non-members for all their input.

Caving (and Mines... Laughing

) is important to us all, and if everyone pitches in when and where they can, it'll make the future of this noble yet grubby, muddy, wet sport a very bright one Very Happy

**Les W** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Tue 09 Dec 2008, 11:40 pm

I'm just as keen as the next man (or woman) to keep access as free and open as possible.

Good luck with the owners and please don't hesitate to ask for help if you need it.

I am continually frustrated by various "groups" who continually try and "reinvent the wheel" as it were with regards to access. There are too many groups that don't understand things like insurance and the various laws and end up with unnecessarily restrictive access conditions, just because they didn't understand the way the insurance and other stuff works.

BCA actually set up the insurance scheme to solve all the insurance problems that cavers have and the policy cover requirements were actually specified by "informed cavers" in an attempt to cover everything of concern to cavers (and mine explorers of course) including digging, winches and even explosives.
The Legal & Insurance officer is continually studying the various legislation to try and keep ahead of the game so that cavers can continue to vist their favourite sites unhindered.

I am certain he will give you any and all the help you may need when dealing with "officialdom".

Please use the resources that BCA and the regional councils provide. It is nobody's intention to tie people up in red tape and bullshit, just to be available to help cavers to get underground. It is all a means to an end and not an attempt to control.
Remember, the officers and agents of the caving "establishment" are cavers too.

**Mike Leahy** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Wed 10 Dec 2008, 8:32 pm

hello les w . just thought i'd say thanks for the info regarding poachers a while ago . all sorted and all that . same land owner as spar mine as it happens . A MAN WITH A MIND FULL OF INFO

**Les W** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Wed 10 Dec 2008, 9:32 pm

Hi Mike,

Good to hear from you, glad Poachers was all sorted, hope the same can be done with the Spar Mine.

We will be up in May, maybe see you then.

Les

**Mike Leahy** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Wed 10 Dec 2008, 10:13 pm

it will be if ive got anything to do with it . it will be good to catch up with you . what are your plans for may . any thing in mind and how long are you up for

**Jo Mc-M** · Subject: last night's visit... Fri 12 Dec 2008, 11:04 am

Braved the "freeze-your-nuts-off" cold last night and took my camera out for a little play, here are the results Wink

**AdminJ** · Admin Number of posts: 68 Registration date: 2008-11-24

Les W wrote:

I'm just as keen as the next man (or woman) to keep access as free and open as possible.

Keen indeed queen

Les W wrote:

tie people up in red tape and ****...

Aah, one I missed off the filter, thanks Les Laughing

**Andy M** · Subject: Re: Spar Mine - Lloyd's - Hendre Fri 12 Dec 2008, 5:58 pm

Twas a cold one wasn't it - pictures look great and well done for making the effort taking all the equipment down. Well worth the sacrifice - model looks good too What a Face

Would also like to say Mr Tomos from the Royal Oak has kindly given permission for us to park in the pub car park in future (and asked us not to park in the lane running round the back of the pub). He has asked if we could let him know however which cars belong to cavers when we are going up to the mine, as a few cars have been abandoned there. Very Happy

Would also like to say a big thanks to everyone who has spent the time to help out with advice over how to proceed with this, you are all quite literally a 'mine' of information cheers