Hi

THanks for your replies Ian, I am sure that if members of both clubs work together sensibly then there will be NO local issues in this area.

HOWEVER, that said, the onbgoing issues that are around at the moment do seem to be caused by some UCET members acting irresponsibly.

With regards to the cemetary shaft, please let us know who the Grosvenor member was because no-one else who is asked will say who it was. The reason that access was being restricted to the shaft is simply because the ginging was very unstable, so for safety reasons they decided to fix the ginging and then explore the shaft. After several weeks work they eventually dropped down to the bottom of the shaft to find that UCET members had been down the shaft in the meantime. Not only was this very frustrating to the people who had done the work on the shaft but they then found that whoever had dropped down into the mine had irresponsibly trampled clog prints on the floor and broken artefacts. Incidently it is known that it was UCET members who went down because they left some identifiable evidence.

With regards to other sites in the area then it is known that UCET members have been caught in sites that they do not have permission to be in by the landowner and when accosted have said that they are members of the Grosvenor. Actions like these both alienate the GCC against UCET and alienate GCC from the local landowners and jeopardises many years of good liaisons.

It is no point claiming that they were not on a UCET organised trip and that there actions do not represent UCET. They are a member of UCET, they are caving with other members of UCET and therefore they ARE representing UCET. As such then their actions need to be reviewed by your club because they are bringing a bad image onto your club and are jeopardising your relationships with other clubs.

With regards to MILES comments about clubs "owning" sites I believe that I can clearly state that this is not the intended actions of the clubs. Many sites are gated and locked because the diggers/initial explorers do not want their dig poached by other cavers, which is fair enough. Ultimately once a caving club gates a site then they are taking on some of the liabilities for that site. This is why many sites are left locked and gated for many years afterwards either to stop livestock or humans from falling down them. If at any time another caving club wants to visit these sites then all they have to do is request permission and a key will be made available.

Sadly it is other local cavers who feel that they have the right to visit a site that is causing problems in the area at the moment. One site, the Boat Level Tunnel, is now denied access to any cavers for many years. This is due to the irresponsible attitude of a local caver who broke the access gate, explored the system and then left the gate unlocked. As that system is quite dangerous with shale falls and loose ground then that is very unsafe for any exploring local kids which is one reason that the site is locked. The other reason being that when anyone walks up the Boat Level then it causes St Winefrids Well to muddy up. As this is a major tourist attraction in the area then the owners have always restricted access so as to maintain the crystal clear spring waters. This irresponsible attitude by some has now caused the owners to refuse any more trips and they have now welded the gate shut.

Sadly a lot of cavers feel that the Grosvenor is restricting peoples access to the Milwr Tunnel. This is not the case of the Grosvenor restricting access but is the utilities company who own the site who have insisted that we gate and lock it and restrict access. In fact under our legal agreement we are not even allowed to advertise that we take trips down the site and the plethora of photographs, videos, trip reports on the web could cause them some concern.

Once again I will state that I believe that if everyone works together in a sensible considerate manner then there will be no local issues. Following the split of the Grosvenor from the North Wales there were many years of tension between the clubs. With some members that tension, distrust, even hate is still there. I would not like to see the GCC and UCET heading that way.

Karl

hi karl with regards to pet cemetary "raking up old news " this all came about when nick carter asked me to look into the situation .after a few phone calls we found out who it was a letter was sent to nick . so i would appretiate it if[ you ] would stop going over old news so everone can move forwords in a posative direction see you at the gcc agm regards. mike

I'd like to remind everyone concerned that caving or mine exploration clubs/groups DONT control access or have any legal authority to do so. You are simply adopting a location to look after in terms of conservation and also access information. The Landowner retains this access right and so if the landowner gives permissions for someone or a group to visit the site, then the club who, lets say "looks after" or has adopted the location have no option to comply and lump it. Its in everyone's interests to stop the bickering. If groups start empire building and get above themselves with unreasonable access control and restrict information most importantly access information then the best way to deal with these people is simply to bypass them!

I think UCET should remember that if they dont work for the common good of all interested people (so that includes club and non-club) they will simply be by-passed.

The 1st thing UCET should do is have easy to find public access details about any location they look after (I wont use the word control as they dont). Access details should be put on any gates, no access details on gates then they cant be complied with can they?! Its an old old problem, of who to contact, if you look after a location make sure people interested know what to do to get in!

As for the Grosvenor, well they are already bypassed and mean little.

I am not going to lower myself to Miles' level. If he does not have the good manners and consideration to allow somebody to continue a dig to it's completion without somebody else breaking in and disturbing the ongoing works then so be it. We do at least now know exactly what kind of a bar steward he is, with total lack of consideration to other cavers.

Marty, if you have been given permission by the landowner to go down cemetary shaft then good for you. No-one is complaining that assess is denied to everyone, however, the shaft was capped/covered so that the ginging could be repaired so as to ensure that nothing fell onto anyone. With all due respect, but if those cavers who went down cannot recognise dodgy ginging and continue with a trip regardless then they really need to stop caving now before they become a burden to the local CRO. No-body likes carrying a dead body out of a system!

Incudentally, and I may be wrong, but does Flintshire own the land that it is upon, so what is their bearing on these situations? I seem to recall that up in that area that it was the Grosvenor Estates who have placed beehives on the shafts so as to make them safe in the 80's. As for some beehives being marked with GCC, I don't know the full story but I do know that some members in the 90's opened up some of the beehives and checked out the shafts below. They then remade the beehives. If they wanted to mark GCC on the beehive then so what? It's not as if they were claiming them as there own.

Ian, as for the trips were UCET cavers have been caught claiming to be GCC members, I don't know the full details or dates but I believe that it has been within the last couple of years. The end result is that for the GCC and UCET to continue with good will between the two clubs then some members need to operate in a more considerate manner.

Finally, for those who don't know, there is a history of cave and mine digs being poached in the past, or visited and trashed by other cavers. So if Grosvenor or North Wales or any other club for that matter wants to put a tough cap on then can you blame them? There is a history of making caps as tough as possible and this trend continues today, but when there are cavers in the area with zero respect for the works of others then I believe that it will probably continue.

Now these are my final words on these matters on here, I think this has been stretched far enough. Sadly I now have to go and visit , my dying mother-in-law so I may not be back on this site for a few days. Lets hope that there is good news about OG by then.

Cheers
Karl

Update on the Position with the Spar Mine;

At the UCET AGM (15th Jan 2009) the matter of the Spar Mine was raised and discussed at length. The following was determined;

1) The landowners agents had advised the landowner to seal the mine(s) as well as erect new fencing both around the mine entrances and along the side of a public footpath that goes close to it.

2) Our (now) vice-chairman did put forward an alternative proposal to keep the mine open (as outlined earlier in the thread).

3) The issue of the bats in the cave was not known about by the landowner until he was approached by Batmancaver (GCC & The Clwyd Bat Group?)


The landowner still intends to seal the entrance but, of course, now also needs to comply with legislation and ensure that the bats can freely use the entrance (ie. a bat grill/gate).

It was proposed (subject to the CCW approving same) that we create an entrance that the bats can continue to use as well as add a gate for everyone else to enter by and that we would do so at our cost (we will look into the possibility of a grant from the Cambrian Caving Council) in a trade off for maintaining human access with the landowner.

We have taken on board all of the positive comments on the forum and, subject to the CCW agreeing the plans, we would welcome anyone to help and assist in the creation of the new entrance and we also propose;

a) A sign will be erected with access details

b) If a padlock is fitted we will give a key to anyone who wants one (to keep) or if the padlock is a combination lock we will make the combination known (following the example of Cwmorthin)


The purpose of the exercise is to keep the mine open for all and we hope that everyone will support this project.

I wholeheatedly agree with Ian. We're a good buch of people!

I would also like to add that the GCC members that I have spoken to since being a caver have all seemed like decent people, so I'm puzzled as to where all the perceived hostility towards UCET comes from. They seem like decent people to me. The UCET members I know are also decent people. We share a common interest in caving/mining and just happen to have joined different clubs for no real reason. I may have joined GCC if I had been introduced to them before UCET, thats just the way it goes for many of us! The arguments over access is tiring and I would love for us to get over it all so that we can coexist and work together. If there are a few rogues among us who like to sh*t stir then lets positively get them to sort their act out as they are ruining it for us all.

Hopefully at some point we could get to know each other better and learn to share.

Regards

Marc