Walk-throughs, comments, experiences, pictures please!

As a new forum member I don't understand the reason why it needs a fence and a locked gate? What is wrong with leaving it as is? or is this another example of club expire building? or a case of a worried land owner!

The position is, (as I understand it), that the agents acting for the landowners are very concerned about liability issues and have advised the landowner to seal all the entrances/shafts.

However, one of the landowners (3 brothers?) is a good friend of our current chairman and, instead of sealing the entrances (cost issues perhaps?) has offered UCET the opportunity to "look after" (I don't know what the right term would be) the mine(s) provided that the entrance(s) are gated (limit potential liability) and that the existing fences are repaired at our cost.

As a caving club we are anxious to keep as many caves and mines accessible as possible and for the relatively small cost and work involved (requested by the landowner) we saw it as an equitable arrangement.

Personally, I would always favour having an open access but I do understand the landowners concerns and although we all (UCET club members etc.) carry insurance, not everyone who ventures down might do so.

Your point is well made simplyexploring

Ian

thanks for explaining

I suppose what I don't want to see like many others is yet another mine controlled and that is hard to get into. What sort of access system are you going to put in place? is it going to belong the lines what we are doing at Cwmorthin? or is it going to another club controlled invite mine only?

Another good question

I am not entirely sure what you are looking to achieve at Cwmorthin. We visited you 2 weeks ago (I guess you saw our little "fun" video) as we share a member ("Guy" or at least I think we do).

There is, however, no answer to your question yet as we (again, as I understand it) have not actually made any decision other than what you have seen in the first post (ie. that we want to keep it open).

I do know that there is a planned trip down to the Spar mine this coming Thursday (although I regret I cannot make it that evening) and I think the purpose of the trip is to consider how best to proceed.

Whatever happens though (dunno how well you know the mine), regardless of what happens at the "gate", there is a super huge hole to the surface which any determined caver could abseil down regardless of any other measures that are taken.

I personally like your system at Cwmorthin (combo lock) .....

This mine will become this clubs first "project" (again, dunno if that is the right word) and any hints, tips and advice you could offer would be very welcome and greatly appreciated

Ian

Cool,

Fantastic goal

As you have invited me to ask .... I gottta ask , how do you "manage" the aspect of allowing entry for people with no insurance? I mean, if anything went wrong inside, who does the liability fall on?

Certainly this is the landowners primary concern with the Spar mine and, as you may have gathered from the initial post on this thread, it is a concern of some of the UCET members too.

If you have that issue nailed down then I think it would be a huge step forward for ALL caving clubs

Ian

Best thing to do is to email me your phone number and will give you a call one evening and explain

If you can achieve what we are doing at Cwmorthin (and there is no reason you should not be able to) then you make many many people in the exploring comunity very happy.

Very cool .... I am going to PM my number to you now (when I work out how to use the PM as I am new here too).



Ian

I'm a regular visitor to Hendre spar mine and have known about it and visited it for many years

I hope that this isn't a club empire building nonsense that seems to appear when other clubs, Grosvenor for instance get there hands on something good than lock it down at the flick of a switch and then say who can come and who cant and then you have to have a guide with you when you want to enter.

Your thoughts of a fee for people to enter should not be used maybe a donation box would be more than beneficial. giving people the chance to offer than commanding a entrance fee, as some who have been regular visitors for years will no doubt become a little disgruntled that some two bit club has claimed a mine for there own suggesting to fix a problem for the owner that has never existed.

A simple fence and signs which i have already seen put in place this week is enough to tell people who walk there dogs up there that there are shafts dotted around and care should be taken .

Club access control is ruining the chance for explorers to freely enter a mine or cave at there own risk. if someone enters a mine and is hurt its there fault not the owners

Don't try and fix a problem that doesn't exist

Marty,

Thanks for your post....

I was at the UCET club meeting when the issue of the Spar mine was raised and the position is that the agents acting for the landowners have advised the landowner to seal the entrances.

You may have noticed recently that a lot of new signs have been added to the area warning of the mine entrances and, as things stand at this time, the landowner does not consent to visitors to the mine.

Rather than see the mine(s) close (I understand there are 3), we are in negotiation with the landowner to see if they can be kept open. So far as I understand (and I am only a "normal" member and not privvy to all the details) the landowner is content to allow them to be open provided the liability issues are dealt with and he has resquested them gated.

It is not a case of "UCET" empire building but rather a case of someone having to take ownership of "the problem" to ensure that we (as caving clubs) can still enjoy the benefits of the mine(s).

UCET is only a very small club in the world of caving and we are on "new ground". the user posting here "Simplyexploring" has offered some very useful help and tips and I especially like the system he has set up at Cwnmorthin (I can't speak for the other members of the club but I would guess they do too).

The matter of a "fee" was raised but not settled on at the meeting and this was only because the landowner wants to the fences repaired at our cost and as we do not have any funds we have to look for means to raise them. The club members were not in agreement on that issue and, again, the system used at Cwmorthin seems equitable (an honesty box inside the entrance).

So, it's not so much that we are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist ... if we do nothing the landowner will seal all the entrances


Cookie,

Thanks for your post. I had no idea a grant might be available and I will telephone around the club seniors this evening and advise them of your suggestion (which is obviously very welcome ) Hopefully, that will remove the issue of a fee altogether.

Please keep any ideas and suggestions coming as we are only a young club (4 years or so) and this "problem" of keeping the mine(s) open for "everyone" is the first time we have had to address such an issue and more experienced cavers (yourselves) may well have ready solutions to these problems that we have not considered

Regards,

Ian

Hi Ian,

Just thought I'd bring up the subject of insurance as this is often not fully understood.

BCA insurance automatically indemnifies the land owner of any underground site regardless of the insurance status of the people visiting.

If the access is being controlled by a third party eg. UCET then insisting that visitors have BCA insurance does not indemnify those persons involved in administering the access, this is often misunderstood.
Access controlling body insurance is required for this.

Personal BCA cover (eg. CIM, DIM) only indemnifies the individual concerned from risks associated with an incident underground where another caver may be injured by their actions, it is unlikely that this will ever result in a claim from "one of your mates" and is to be discouraged in reality anyway as it will place the whole policy at risk. There is quite a large excess anyway which may act as a deterrent to frivolous claims

Bottom line is
1. The land owner is already indemnified.
2. Access body insurance is required to indemnify any third party administering access.
3. Individual insurance does not indemnify anybody else but the individual concerned. (It.s main purpose is to indemnify the club by the simple fact that if all the members are insured then so is the club as a whole).

Clubs and other access bodies that insist that everybody who visits is insured are mistaken if they believe that this insures them, the only way they can be indemnified is by taking access body cover out with BCA.

It is possible that they might pass the access control to their regional council which is already indemnified for access control/admin and then act as agents of that council for the purpose of administering the access. This would not only give them cover (as all persons acting on behalf of a regional council are covered by BCA cover) but also open an easy route to grant aid for the cost of any necessary works/materials, etc.

Hope this is of use

Les

Hi Les,

Thanks for your reply - it is very useful.

I realise the issue of insurance is very confusing and must confess that I am still confused. May I perhaps go out on a bit of a limb and ask you some questions (I guess others in UCET may know the answers already but I also know this is your forte) ....

1) I am not sure what you mean when you say the landowner is already indemnified. In this case, the landowner has had no contact with the BCA and his land agents have advised him to seal the entrances to remove liability issues if someone wanders in and is injured. Are you saying that the landowner is, in any event, indemnified by the BCA ?

2) Both you and Cookie refer to the "regional council". Do you mean the County Council (in this case Flintshire County Council) or is there a sub-division of the BCA known as a regional council? (sorry to be a noob).

3) If you do mean the local County Council, is there a specific department we should contact and will they make us jump through any hoops which we would not otherwise have to jump through (ie. HSE issues, maintenance of a visitors log etc.) ?

4) If the club doesn't opt to approach the council (the landowner would rather just seal the entrances than have to suffer any "hassle"), I assume from your explanation that the club would require insurance. Even though every member of the club is insured (the green card) I assume that this is inadequate and additional insurance specific to the mine will be required. That being so, is there a fixed premium or is it dependant on the size of the mine etc. (bearing in mind there are 3 mines) ?

I hope you don't mind me asking but as you say, it is confusing

Regards,

Ian